A Research Paper By Clark Luby, Career Coach, CANADA
What is it that would help you now, in our conversation? That, to me, is the most natural question you can ask. It is an agreement question, but it doesn’t sound like a formula. What do you need at this point in our conversation?, to me, is showing that you’re partnering with the person and you’re just simply trying to figure out, where are we going? Marion Franklin, MCC, Coach and Author of The Heart of Laser-Focused Coaching
The Heart of Laser-Focused Coaching – Interview with Marion Franklin
Marion Franklin is the author of the book: The Heart of Laser-Focused Coaching: A Revolutionary Approach to Masterful Coaching. I invited Marion on my Podcast, The Coach’s Compass with the hope of learning more about coaching from an MCC Coach and trainer with over 20 years of experience. I was particularly curious about what advice Marion had for new coaches and experienced coaches alike. Her book is known for aiding both levels of experience to coaches in a masterful way. Her training course has a long waiting list.
Marion’s no-nonsense approach shows through in this interview. Marion talks about how experience in the client’s area of expertise or industry is not important, but rather it’s the coach’s job to “shine a light where clients can’t see” it. We talked about the power that silence in a coaching session can bring. New coaches tend to concern themselves with being “right” when asking a question and this is a trap many fall into. According to Marion, whether you’re right or wrong doesn’t matter and sometimes the greatest awareness actually comes from the coach being wrong about something.
There’s power in silence in coaching, but many students have difficulty with it according to Marion because they’re taught to always be asking a question. There should be less importance on having a list of questions and simply listening to what you’re hearing. Keep your questions, simple, broad, and short.
We talked about the importance of listening and that this is really where the real value of coaching occurs because it really doesn’t happen anywhere else in the same way.
I asked her questions that related to some of my own challenges, especially as a beginner coach. I hope that those reading this research paper will find it as helpful as I did. Periodically I will go back and listen to my interview with Marion and it always seems to reinforce my learning while training as a coach, I tend to pick up something new every time. I really encourage both new and experienced coaches to listen to my interview with Marion and hope they find it to be an inspiration.
Interview with Marion Franklin
Note: The following transcript has been edited slightly for brevity and I removed certain elements to make it more readable as this is a spoken interview. I highly encourage everyone to listen to the actual interview on my podcast. It’s full of great insights, humor, and a real gift from the author to share this wisdom we can all learn from.
Clark: Marion it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast. In the coaching circles, I have traveled in, your name and your book come up a lot. So it’s an absolute thrill to have you on here.
Marion: Well thank you for having me.
Clark: Where did you first hear about the word “coaching”
Marion: I was trained by someone who had a therapy background and I had no idea when he did the workshops that he also did coaching. And during one of his workshops, he asked me if I wanted to learn how to do that. I was very impressed with what he was doing with people (and with me) and I became a workshop junkie and co-facilitated with him and then a few years later the coaching world truly exploded the way we began to know it back then, even though people were still asking “what sport?”
Clark: What sort of things were you seeing about him that really intrigued you?
Marion: I think it was partly his directness, I mean he was just so direct, but really hit the truth in people and that was so impressive. He created all these different types of exercises and I don’t think any of us realized how much we were changing in that process. I could see the transformation happening and when it became coaching he had some intriguing ways of explaining it that we learned what coaching really is.
Clark: Is it important to have experience in the field that the client works in?
Marion: You’re always going to find people who are more experienced, older, younger, speak more languages than you do, have more money than you do, you’re always going to find those people the pastors, priests, rabbis, people that you put on a pedestal, doctors, whatever. And the irony is they all have the same amount of problems as we do when it comes down to being a human being. And it hit me so hard. I’ve told this story before, but it hit me so hard when I was practicing coaching in the beginning and we had to coach each other for a period of time. And I had this coach in our life coaching group, and I thought she was just so excellent. She was just amazing at picking up the coaching and always helped me dramatically in terms of the problems that I brought. And then it was time to switch and I had to be her coach and she came with something about a family situation and I thought to myself, you’ve got to be kidding me. This is what is a problem for you. I had her on this pedestal as being the most amazing coach and whatever and so together and then I hear this problem and I’m thinking, oh my gosh, we all have these problems! So I would say the intimidation is just because of the way we’ve been wired. But if you think about it as a human being, we all have problems and we all have challenges and they’re all basically the same. They just show up a little differently.
Clark: How do you deal with silence in a coaching conversation? A lot of coaches feel they need to add value and silence can feel like they’re not contributing or doing anything.
Marion: Okay, so, well, that’s my absolute favorite thing, um, because, to me, it’s the hardest and the easiest. So it’s the hardest because we want to jump in, but it’s the easiest because technically, all you have to do is sit there and wait. So in some ways, I find it to be the easiest, but I actually learned the hard way, so to speak, which is I think pretty much the difference between what I present a lot of times because I’ve learned things the hard way and I’ve looked back and I’ve seen how that impacted my going forward. A coach is there to really shine a light where they can’t see. And that’s our role. And so it has to help them to see what’s really true.
So I remember in the very beginning asking somebody a question and then there was that dead silence and I was freaked out, like, oh my God, did I just offend her? I wonder if she hung up? But I was just sitting there going through these machinations like there was no tomorrow. And then she started to speak and she had all these things to say and that’s when I realized, oh, my God, just keep your mouth shut. So, what I tell coaches, and I know this is crazy, but it works, is don’t say anything until the client speaks again. And it’s so brilliant because it means chill. And somebody asked me, can I just say, Are you still there? And I say, no, because, um, the example I like to give is you’re having this amazing dream and the alarm clock goes off. Well, what happens? It cuts off the dream. No matter who you are, it just cuts it off. You can’t really get back to it.
So it’s the same thing when we’re interrupting their thinking, that silence means they are thinking, and interrupting it with anything is really not okay.
So I think when people listen to my coaching, it really seriously is mind-blowing how little I speak because I leave so much silence. Now, the other thing I like to give the example is that when you ask a question and it’s not a fact, it’s a question like, well, What was that like for you? And the person says, “Well, um, I don’t really know.” And then the coaches, oh, well, let me you know, and tries to fix the question or ask it again or do something, and I say, no, just because they’re saying, I don’t know, doesn’t mean they don’t know unless you’ve asked them an actual fact. So I just stayed quiet, as if they hadn’t said, “I don’t know”. And sure enough, something comes up. But people aren’t necessarily willing, able, or ready to just blurt out whatever was real for them at that moment. So we need to give them that space. And the other place where coaches don’t leave space is after a person has answered a question. So, for example, you asked somebody, what was that like for you? Well, it was hard. And I found it was a little tricky, actually. And, yeah, it wasn’t really easy. And then the coach jumps in, and I’m like, no, they’re not finished. Give them at least 10 seconds, at least, before you say anything again. But if the answer sounds like, “Oh, well, it was really tricky and it was kind of hard for me, I was really not happy there.” Well, then you can tell they’re done because there’s conviction. But if it’s kind of that you can still hear what they’re thinking, then don’t interrupt.
Clark: Why do coaches interrupt?
Marion: Oh, that’s the tendency. Because we can’t first of all, coaches, um, because we love to, as you say, show that we’re bringing value. Um, and also, I would say, um, because coaches are so afraid that what they’ve just asked wasn’t an okay question. And as I’ve always said, unless it’s another coach, there is no way on this planet somebody knows if you asked a good or a bad question. So I would say ask the question. If you don’t get a good answer, so to speak, you don’t get the data that you need – move on, and ask another question. But it’s never something you have to, um, go back in and try to fix. And I think, um, coaches have a hard time just staying quiet because they’re taught, oh, always ask a question, but sometimes it’s about just sitting and letting the client have space.
Clark: You talk about in your book that coaches shouldn’t be afraid if they’re right or wrong when asking a question.
Marion: Yeah. My favorite word is neutral. So if you’re asking it with what Thomas Leonard used to call a charge, like you’re, in a way, you’re, um, implying this is a good thing or a bad thing, then you’re not okay. But if you’re really neutral, then I would say, um, it’s really cool to just go ahead and ask a question and stay in a place of whether you’re right or wrong doesn’t matter, because if you’re right, the client will agree and you can move on. And if you’re not right if you say it in a particular way and you’re neutral, the client will correct you, and you get the information that you need. As a matter of fact, some of the greatest awareness comes when you ask, um, a question and you’re wrong about something. Well, it must have been really hard. What do you think? No, actually, it was really easy for me. And that’s the information you need, so it doesn’t matter whether you’re right or wrong.
Clark: I found after reading that I felt I no longer had to ask the right question or be right about it.
Marion: Yeah. And that’s one thing that I love to teach coaches, is that it’s not about being right. And now, in my personal life, it’s a whole other story. But as a coach, um, it really is about getting the information that you need. And so I actually think if you’re willing to be wrong about any belief, any idea, anything, then you can be a really great coach. But as soon as you have this thing of you need to be right, it ruins the relationship with, uh, the client.
Clark: So just put that all aside and “just be?”
Marion: Right, and get the information you need. Whether you’re right or wrong doesn’t matter. You’re only a facilitator.
Clark: In our training, we’re taught about the session objective. In the real world, how important is the session objective in a coaching session?
Marion: Yeah, well, first of all, the number one thing is, it doesn’t have to be right up front. And I always say that because right up front, the client doesn’t really know how deep this conversation could go or how much they could really get out of it. They only know where they’re coming from, let’s say, from their own perspective of what they’re hoping for. So I always say really get down into what’s really going on before even thinking about the agreement or the objective. And then I think that asking questions in a natural way makes it way more powerful than following what I call the formula. Um, so, for example, somebody says, I’d really like to figure, um, out whether I need to stay or go at this job. And I might ask, what do you think might help you to figure that out? This is really an agreement question, but it makes sense. It’s a natural question, like, what do you think might help you to do that?
Sometimes “What’s important about that to you”? That’s a strange thing to want from a conversation. What makes it important? Or sometimes just even why bring it up at this moment in time? What is it about now that has you bringing it versus six months ago or waiting? Uh, but to me, these are all part of the objective for the session. And sometimes that objective doesn’t really get clear until way down, because they’ve come up with a story about their boss and this is really about their husband. I mean, that’s happened. We all know that the story veers and all of a sudden we can hear – oh wait, this is about something different. Well, then it’s time to figure out what is it that would help you now, in our conversation. That, to me, is the most natural question you can ask. It is an agreement question, so to speak, but it doesn’t sound like a formula. What you need at this point in our conversation, to me, is showing that you’re partnering with the person and you’re just simply trying to figure out, where are we going.
Clark: During a session, sometimes my mind can wander. How do we avoid the mind wandering?
Marion: Uh, I think the problem is the coaches believe that everything the client is sharing, they have to take in. And I find this, particularly with males, I have to say it’s harder for men because women are kind of all over the place when they talk. They kind of go in different directions, different little octopusy in terms of the start of one thing, and then all of a sudden it’s about something else. And guys, I find, are trying to track it, like really stay with it and really track it. And I always say, no, just stay up in that helicopter and just listen for the emotion, listen for the big picture, what’s really going on here? Because people get so caught up in all the words, your mind wanders. And sometimes, by the way, it’s important to share that with the client. I’m finding that I’m hearing so much detail, it’s really hard to focus. I wonder what is it that is really going on here? Because sometimes they’re just blah blah blah blah blah blah blah because they’re avoiding telling you something or really getting to their point. So I think it’s really, um yeah, it’s just so interesting to me.
Clark: I’ve heard some coaches have a list of questions. You know “the go-to questions” they’ll have posted up on a wall. I suspect that’s not really the right thing to be doing…?
Marion: Actually, it makes me insane. Um, and really, it makes me crazy because there is no such thing. First of all, it’s not a formula and there are no questions that are absolutely right at any time because it depends on what you’re hearing. So I always say as long as you’re starting with the word “what” And, uh, it makes it an open question and you’re not asking for a fact or more of the story, but you’re asking about the person. You can’t go wrong. And that comes by really listening, not by having a series of questions. And I still totally believe one of the most powerful questions you can ask a client is, what does that mean for you? It’s such a simple question. There’s nothing exciting about it, there’s nothing fancy about it, but it can be so powerful. So coaches have this idea that they have to ask certain types of questions. And I always say the simpler and the broader the question, the better it is. What is that like? What does that mean? What would happen? They’re simple. They’re so simple. But what coaches do is they try so hard to make the question sophisticated or to make the question specific. Well, what would you do if this happened this way? No, just ask, what would you do? Just stop there. Because the simpler and broader the question, the better information you’re going to get. Because you’re going to hear how they are interpreting your question. And that, to me, is way more exciting and interesting than having them answer a specific question that you have in mind.
Clark: We’ve talked about new coaches and their challenges so far. What’s the biggest challenge you see out there for experienced coaches?
Marion: I would say it’s how to go deeper. Because really, at the highest level, we’ll say, of coaching, it really is about going deeper and drilling down. And what happens too often, even at the really high levels, is that the client has shared something and the coach will ask a question and then they’ll move on. And I’m like, no, you have to stay with that. You can’t move away because that could become the entire conversation. And that’s where people get a little hung up because they’re so concerned about the action steps and making sure they finish the conversation and get the whole arc and, all those pieces, um, and parts that are just mind games, really, because it’s really much more about getting down into what’s underneath, what’s going on. And I think that’s the hardest part, even at the experience levels.
Clark: Even at the experienced levels?
Marion: Yeah, I think there’s too much I, um, want to say letting go. Um, I just had this the other day mentoring somebody for, um, MCC. And it was the kind of thing where the client had said something that I thought was really critical and there was a question around it and then it moved on. And then it’s when I said no, this was such an amazing statement from the client, that the client had been talking about something in a positive way throughout the whole conversation. And then this is now at, like I’ll say, 15 minutes, and all of a sudden it has all these negatives whoa, hold on a second. It’s been sounding positive up until now, and now all of a sudden it’s negative? Wait a second. It’s worth looking at what’s really going on here. It’s not just, uh, a one-question kind of thing. It’s like, oh, this is weird. This came out of left field.
Clark: I want to ask you about pricing. When someone is thinking of hiring a coach, how should they be thinking about the cost?
Marion: Well, I think the thing that’s confusing is, um, coaches make it much more about time than they do about value. So I always say, you can do brilliant, brilliant coaching in 30 minutes. You don’t really need a whole I’ll say 30 to 45. You really don’t need 60 minutes to do brilliant coaching. Um, and that said, it really is about value. And I think, first of all, especially newer coaches don’t believe they’re providing that kind of value. And I’ve always said the value, if you think about it, is in the listening. How many people on this planet are willing to sit down with you and just listen to what you have to say in a nonjudgmental way? And, uh, there is no such thing other than in coaching. So even a friend, a friend is invested, a friend is going to agree with you, or a friend is going to question you, but not in a way that it’s going to really change or necessarily impact you in that really deep way. So just the fact that we’re able to listen the way we do is just an amazing value. Um, first of all, and what I’ve always said to coaches, uh, you hear all different stories. So some coaches will say, if you charge too little, you’re devaluing coaching if you charge too much. And I always say you’ve got to find your sweet spot. What Thomas Leonard used to say, is to come up with a number. If everyone says yes, raise the number. If everyone says no, lower the number. And if some say yes and some say no, you’re probably in the right place. And you have to start somewhere. And I don’t care if you start with $100. It doesn’t matter what you start with. It has to be where you can see that somebody is getting value from what you’re offering. And then my philosophy, but it’s just a personal philosophy, I never change the rate that I charge someone, no matter how much I change my rates over time. And I would only change it once a year. In January, I would come up with new rates. And if somebody was with me before January of that prior year, they kept their rate. So my very first client was paying $225 for four sessions. He could cancel at the last second. He really got away with everything because I had no concept of policy and procedures, and he didn’t pay me until after the sessions. Because I was too afraid to ask for the money. And so on. And so typical new coach. And we worked together for many years. His life transformed dramatically. And we went from weekly to biweekly to monthly to quarterly. Uh, and that really lasted, as I say, many, many years. And then he approached me and he said, you can’t still be charging $225 for what you’re offering. And I said, no, I’m not. So he offered to pay more. I’m not a fair person for this question because, for me, it’s never about the money. Um, and it’s not because I have money or anything like that. It’s just not my thing. I much rather provide a good service. And what I’ve always said to coaches, is I would rather have two people paying $100 than one person paying 200. Because the more people you have, the more they’re going to recommend, the more that you’re going to get referrals, and the more people you’re impacting. So I would rather it’s, uh, just always been my thing. And I know now, that even my coach training, my mentoring, and everything I offer is way lower than almost everybody else. And I’m okay with that because I feel good about what I’m offering.
Clark: The value vs. time is a great way to put it. When you just look at it as just time it can be misleading.
Marion: I agree. The other thing, though, I have to say, based on what you’re just, uh, sharing, is that I also, and this, again, is a personal philosophy and doesn’t make me right. It doesn’t make me any better or different. Just different, I guess. I, uh, don’t believe in making people commit to a period of time other than four weeks at a time. Um, and what I have found over time is that by having people only commit to four weeks at a time, first of all, it doesn’t feel like such a great investment. Secondly, they have the option to stay or leave. And because they have that freedom to choose at the end of four weeks, I’m going to say I have kept people for really long periods of time, several years sometimes, um, as their life has unfolded, just because they have that freedom. Versus I have heard from other coaches, that they make somebody sign a six-month contract or a one-year contract, and then you realize, I’m not really getting what I thought I would get. Or I’m not really liking this person as much as I thought. Or, um, I feel like I don’t really need this coaching anymore so much, whatever. All these things are realistic. And then the person feels obligated. And then it becomes, uh, a whole contract thing and can we break this void this contract now? It just leads to me just some ugly things that have happened over time. So I’m very big on, uh, four sessions at a time. I’m very big on giving people the freedom to renew or not renew, depending on how they feel in terms of the value they’re getting
Clark: What’s the advice you hear out there when it comes to coaching that really rubs you the wrong way?
Marion: Uh, Get the agreement right away. Make sure they have action steps. Results are important. I always say the relationship is way more important than the results. Um, what else? Uh, that it’s okay to say to the client, um, I have this great exercise. Are you okay doing it? How many clients are going to say no to their coach? So that drives me crazy.
I know somebody was just saying, uh, that they parrot back what they just heard and then say, did I get that right? Am I correct? And that, I think, is probably one of the biggest things that I would say has to go. Um, another one is “Tell me more.” It’s like you’re telling your dog to sit. Tell me more. So what else might you say about that? If you really do need more information, (and 99% of the time, you really don’t), the tell me more is just I need more detail is what the coach is saying. And I’m saying, no, you really don’t need more detail.
Clark: And “Am I right” goes back to the fear of being right or wrong.
Marion: Well, that and it’s a yes-no question, and it makes it about the coach. Did I hear was I able to hear you? Did I do a good job? I mean, that’s how I hear it. Um, I always say, don’t parrot unless they say something totally bizarre. Then you say, oh, I thought I just heard DA DA DA DA. And it, you know, struck me because, you know, it was something like, so unusual or so weird or whatever, but other than that, just get the gist of what they’re saying or the emotion that you think you hear and then move on
One other thing I just thought of is that you can’t be direct, um, because people confuse directive with proper direct communication. And you can say anything you want as long as you follow the three guidelines I have given. But, um, you CAN say anything you want and you are allowed to share an observation. A lot of coach training is just asking questions and no, sometimes you can really share what’s coming up for you and, um, you’re supposed to share what’s coming up for you and question that.
Clark: When you say observation, do you mean like a physical observation?
Marion: No, like, if you if you’re all of a sudden hearing something that strikes you, well, uh, as I’m listening, uh, “it’s sounding like there might be some anger going on. What do you think about that?” The person says “Oh, yeah, I really am angry.” Or, “No, I’m not angry. I think I’m more” and then they come up with whatever they are. That’s fine, too. Um, the point is that, uh, as I say, you’re observing something because you’re the outside person not invested in their stuff. You don’t have an emotional attachment to what’s happening in their world. You’re the outside listener. So if you observe something just like the other day when I was saying, um, about this person, all of a sudden everything was good, good, and all of a sudden it got trashed like crazy. Wait a second, “What’s going on here?” That’s an observation.
All this time it sounded like it was so wonderful, and now all of a sudden it’s sounding like it’s not. What’s really true here?
Clark: Are “why?” questions ever appropriate?
Marion: Everybody asks me that and I always say we should never ask a why question because it goes to history and justification. Um, it makes people defensive. Why did you do that? Well, they go back in time. But then the other thing I love to contrast more than just the why question is the how question. Because a lot of people fight me on that when I say, just use what questions. And people say, oh, but how is just natural? And I always say if you take an average question like, um, how did you decide to choose me for this interview? Well, I went through a lot of people and I read your book and I liked it. Whatever. Versus what was it about me that you decided would be worth interviewing? You see, it’s just so much more powerful. Um, how did you decide something? And the person will give you the methodology of how they decide it. I don’t care how they decide it. I want to know what made them choose that. So the “what” question is just really serious, it’s like a secret thing that just works every time.
Clark: Sometimes when I have a question in a coaching session and they’re not a ‘what” question I’m scrambling to turn them into what questions.
Marion: It takes a lot of practice, um, to the point where now I never even think about it anymore. I just don’t ask questions that aren’t what questions. But I will say you have to practice with your family. You have to practice when you’re out and about even shopping in a store. You want to ask a question. Somebody might say, “How do I get to the Escalator?” No. “What is it that’s going to help me find the Escalator?” I mean, it sounds ridiculous, it’s a silly question, but the point I’m making is you have to get into the habit.
Interview with Marion Franklin Learning Points
Doing this podcast was a wonderful opportunity for me to not only have a great episode in my podcast catalogue but also the gift of being able to share it with the rest of the coaching community. Marion’s advice about asking questions, leaving space for silence, and the mindset of coaching were invaluable learning points for me. It was the perfect topper on the cake of my ICA learning journey.